I think that many who “approve” of Bush don’t think he’s so swift and are not happy with Iraq, yet they do like his politics, and they hate the politics fo the democrats.

They see Bush as not a man, yet The Big Republican Machine, and approx 30% of Americans support that machine, even if the leader is an Idiot, since that leader is their man, and he does play the role of being their man.

They love the machine, not the man.

Just what HAS Bush done worthy of approval?

Look at the resume he will leave history after his tennure as president:

1) Lower Manhattan wasted, after ignoring reports

2) Abu Grahb and Gitmo Torture chambers

3) Iraq wasted and converted from a check on Iranian pretensions in the Gulf to an Iranian Satellite

4) Bin Laden still at large

5) America the pariah of world opinion

6) Massive surpluss converted to massive debt payable to the Chinese central bank.

7) Gas and Oil Prices more than quadriple.

8) New Orleans Wasted.

His response:
Not my fault, couldn’t be helped, gay marraige threatens sanctity of marraige, mission accomplished, we turned the corner, Government is not the solution – Government is the problem, 911 changed everything, Kerry was a coward, Rather was unethical, and couldn’t be anticipated.

My prediction:
Just like the collapse of the Soviet Block – people will just ignore the propaganda and see it for what it is, they will just turn their backs and walk away enmass. Yeah the polls will still show 45 approval, yeah the Republicans will still win all the elections using rigged systems and skulldugery. But their credibility will sink irredeemably, morally bankrupt and lacking any credibility and all claims to legitimacy.

Here’s a headline for ya, “President Bush says he will personally lead the investigation into “what went wrong” with the Hurricane Katrina relief operation.” -BBC News Alert.

Golly gee whiz, I wonder whatever will he find?

This is like O.J. saying he’s not gonna stop until he finds the “real killers.” What’s next? Ken Lay investigating what went wrong with Enron? Jeb Bush looking into election fraud in Florida?

This could lead to a revolution in jurisprudence; no need to bother the police with investigating crimes, just have the lead suspect in the crime do it for them! That’ll save tons of time and money.

1) Lower Manhattan wasted, after ignoring reports

–You mean the same reports that the Clinton administration ignored for 8 years? Must be.

2) Abu Grahb and Gitmo Torture chambers.

–Ask John McCain….being piled up naked on top of your closest terrorist buddies does not constitute torture. Being humiliated by a female guard holding a leash around your neck does not constitute torture. Being forced to high-dive from a cliff because you and the rest of the Iraqi Olympic diving team failed to win a medal…that’s torture. It was a rather interesting, if highly depressing, film clip to watch.

3) Iraq wasted and converted from a check on Iranian pretensions in the Gulf to an Iranian Satellite.

–Iraq is an Iranian province? Wow! Since when?

4) Bin Laden still at large.

–I agree with this one…….let’s get the little MF.

5) America the pariah of world opinion.

–Who cares. It doesn’t stop us from operating successfully in the world.

6) Massive surpluss converted to massive debt payable to the Chinese central bank.

–Not likely. But I’d love to see your proof. I may have to open a new, safer bank account.

7) Gas and Oil Prices more than quadriple.

–This is pretty annoying, especially since my Jeep Cherokee is paid off and I don’t want to replace it!

8) New Orleans Wasted.

–New Orleans is the responsibility of the mayor of that city and the governor of the state. Mayor Nagin failed to execute his own evacuation policy, which is why there are hundreds of buses still parked in a flooded parking lot. Further proof of his unbelievable incompetence: he has authorized a Vegas vacation for 1500 of his city’s first responders because the National Guard is in town and has a handle on everything. By the way, those 1500 folks are getting $200.00 to spend in Vegas. Where did the money for this come from?? Savings from non-deployment of city disaster relief assets? Why are these folks being allowed to take a break during a major relief effort…that they are suppose to be leading?? I wonder if the 1500 include the N.O. cops filmed looting shoes from a Wal-Mart…. I’llbet that was tiring. What is the response of the governor??

But it’s still the fault of the President, right? Not.

Forgive me Tim, for intruding on the reply, but I have to say this.You mean the same reports that the Clinton administration ignored for 8 years? Must be.Wrong. Completely. Name one report he ignored. Clinton’s handling of foreign terror was an example of success. He identified bin Laden early on as a danger, before bin Laden could even be linked to any American deaths. He tried to take bin Laden out with a missile attack, which Republicans criticized. And his administration developed the concept of “shaking the trees,” centrally collecting intelligence so as to put disparate pieces of data together.

And it worked. In case you missed it, there was a terrorist plot to attack the United States at the Millennium in four different cities–all of them foiled by Clinton’s attentiveness to “reports” and doing his job the way it’s supposed to be done. Republicans blow this off, crediting it to an “alert border guard,” as if the one border guard single-handedly stopped the entire operation in four states. Not to mention the fact that the border guard was probably more alert than usual because appropriate warnings had been sent out by the Clinton administration to watch out for terrorists crossing into American territory.

And then there’s the fact that when the Clinton administration handed things over to the Bush administration, terrorism was highlighted, bin Laden named as the country’s biggest threat, and the Bush representatives were told in no uncertain terms that they should continue the counter-terrorism practices of the Clinton administration. They did not. Had they done so, had they continued to “shake the trees,” they would have seen the two reports during the summer of 2001 that showed terror-backed individuals training to be pilots without an interest in learning how to land the aircraft (Arizona and Minnesota) along with the many other warnings and intel, which would have led them to the simple and obvious step of checking flight schools, and could have foiled 9/11 in the exact same way the Clinton administration foiled the Millennium attacks.

Um… Morgan…

I only read and responded to your first point to Tim this morning, taking it seriously. After getting home from work, I read the rest.

Is this clip what you are talking about when you mention the Iraqi Olympic Diving Team “being forced to high-dive from a cliff”?

Either you’ve gone completely around the bend, or your entire post was some kind of bizarre joke. I just don’t understand it. Please explain.

Yes…that is the video that was shown to me. It was explained to me by the NCO who had this that this was authentic, that this was a real person (Iraqi Olympic Dive team member), that he was jumping from a real cliff, and hitting the ground (no CGI stuff here). Additionally, the audience is, according to the NCO, made up family members of the team who were threatened with death if the divers did not dive. I’m no video expert but it looks pretty authentic.

“Either you’ve gone completely around the bend, or your entire post was some kind of bizarre joke. I just don’t understand it. Please explain.”

I don’t think I understand your point. My point was that being forced to jump from a cliff lest your family members are killed IS torture, while being piled up naked with other naked folks is uncomfortable (and humiliating). While I wouldn’t like the latter, its preferable to the former.

First, let me again apologize for my lack of computer know-how. My attempts at providing you a link are not working, and I don’t want to screw up your site.

Anyway…..

“…Clinton’s handling of foreign terror was an example of success….”

Sudan offerred to turn over Bin Laden in 1996 but Mr Clinton did not accept this because “I did not bring him here because I had no basis on which to hold him”.

Had Clinton’s anti-terrorists efforts been a success, as you claim, Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia would not have been bombed, two of our embassies in African would not have been bombed, the USS Cole would not have been bombed, and 9/11 would not have happenned.

*But 9/11 happenned under Dubya!!*

True….only 8 months into his presidency, while many of his key staff members were still awaiting Senate approval. But Mr Clinton had 8 years to deal with terrorism. The Bin Laden fatwa declaring war against the US was issued in 1998. Our response? A missle into his training camp in Afghanistan, which missed its target, and a strike into Sudan, which missed its target. During the 9/11 Hearings, Bob Kerrey stated that we should’ve declared war against Bin Laden prior to 9/11. Yes…we should have. Why didn’t we? Clinton had from 1998 to Jan 2001 to do so and didn’t. Dubya, without his entire staff and cabinet in place, had 8 months. Clinton was hardly successful in this area.

Yes…that is the video that was shown to me. It was explained to me by the NCO who had this that this was authentic, that this was a real person (Iraqi Olympic Dive team member), that he was jumping from a real cliff, and hitting the ground (no CGI stuff here). … I don’t think I understand your point. My point was that being forced to jump from a cliff lest your family members are killed IS torture, while being piled up naked with other naked folks is uncomfortable (and humiliating). While I wouldn’t like the latter, its preferable to the former.Morgan, my point is that you seem to be clearly within the 46% mentioned above. Note the terms “gullible” and “born yesterday.” Sorry if it offends you, but frankly I think you have to be pretty far gone to look at that video in any context or introduction and actually believe it to be authentic. The diver so willingly jumping, unafraid, stretching his neck muscles before diving to his death? Audience clapping, an Olympic scorecard coming up? If you did not respond so seriously, I would have not believed you to be at all serious–but you seem to be. This to me displays how people can be taken in, if it is what they want to believe.

The clip was indeed fake, indeed included CGI, and, unsurprisingly, was made by Fox–Fox Sports, in this case. The announcer is not Iraqi, but Turkish.

Morgan, you gotta question what you see and hear a lot more than you do–if you did, you might not be quite so pro-Bush or pro-Republican. But this explains a lot…

“…Clinton’s handling of foreign terror was an example of success….”
Sudan offerred to turn over Bin Laden in 1996 but Mr Clinton did not accept this because “I did not bring him here because I had no basis on which to hold him”. This is a dead-horse canard beaten a thousand miles beyond even the semblance of authenticity. It’s a standard right-wing lie which I have thoroughly debunked here.

Had Clinton’s anti-terrorists efforts been a success, as you claim, Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia would not have been bombed, two of our embassies in African would not have been bombed, the USS Cole would not have been bombed, and 9/11 would not have happenned.All of these are terrorist attacks overseas, where terrorists can operate outside our borders, making the task of finding them far more difficult. When they are inside our own borders, the intelligence is a lot easier to gather. All the “terrorist” attacks in Iraq would be happening under Bush’s watch and he’s letting hundreds of them get through–by your logic, each one is another example of Bush’s failure to predict terrorism. Overseas terror attacks against us have been going on for decades–was Reagan a failure because of the Lebanon barracks bombing?

True….only 8 months into his presidency, while many of his key staff members were still awaiting Senate approval. But Mr Clinton had 8 years to deal with terrorism.Another right-wing canard, and it’s pure BS. There isn’t a single Bush appointee you can name whose absence wasn’t otherwise covered in some way, or whose absence would have stopped them from busting up the plot. They had all the people they needed, and the evidence, it turns out, was practically overwhelming: multiple warning from the Clinton administration with a blueprint for success, four PDBs warning of terror attacks loud and clear, intel that al Qaeda was planning on using planes which Bush and Rice followed in Genoa, two separate reports of terrorists training to fly but not land planes in the U.S., CIA and FBI warnings, the list goes on and on. All ignored or stopped by internal obstructionism, none of which was caused by a few empty seats. All Rice had to do was have all the intel streamed through someone already working in her office, condensed, and handed to her. She would have heard about al Qaeda cells, the plan to use planes, the two separate reports of terror suspects getting flight training, and all the rest; from there, all she had to do was tell the FBI to check out flight training schools. End of story. Again, I have the “we didn’t have enough time/intel/appointees” BS lie thoroughly debunked here and here.

The Bin Laden fatwa declaring war against the US was issued in 1998. Our response? A missle into his training camp in Afghanistan, which missed its target, and a strike into Sudan, which missed its target.Yes, and Bush has done so much better with twice as much time and half our armed forces after bin Laden, hasn’t he? And Clinton had an obstructionist Republican Congress dogging him, criticizing him every time he tried to get bin Laden while doing absolutely nothing to help.

Here are the basic facts: al Qaeda attempts massive terror attack against US under Clinton: foiled. Al Qaeda tries again under Bush: successful, despite Bush & Co. getting more than enough warning, intel, and opportunity to stop them.

ok…I’m going to try this again. Hopefully, this one won’t disappear.

“….but frankly I think you have to be pretty far gone to look at that video in any context or introduction and actually believe it to be authentic. The diver so willingly jumping, unafraid, stretching his neck muscles before diving to his death? Audience clapping, an Olympic scorecard coming up?…”

Just as you find National Review difficult to take seriously, I find Slate magazine (and New Republic and Mother Jones, which some of the Slate writers have worked for) difficult to take seriously. But, I do hope that you are correct, that the video in question is a fake. However, I did take it as authentic because of the person who showed it to me as well as the information I have from friends, some now retired from the Army, who were in Iraq/ Kuwait and saw such videos. Videos which, apparently, included scenes of gang-rapes by Iraqi military members, use of farm equipment against people, and such. These friends are, in my opinion, highly reliable people, people of integrity, and I’ve no reason not to believe them. While they did not go into too much detail about what was on the tapes (beyond what little I’ve mentioned), they were quite convinced that what they saw was authentic.

But, we were discussing Abu Ghraib/ Gitmo “torture chambers”. Unlike Uday Hussein, we don’t put people into Iron Maidens, we don’t drop them into vats of boiling oil/ water, we don’t gang-rape them in front of family member in order to get them to talk (military folks that do commit such acts, like the idiot 82d ABN guy in the Balkans, ought to be shot). At Gitmo in particular, we go out of our way to make the detainees comfortable…and they are the enemy! They get time to exercise, time to pray…and a prayer rug for that, they even get food catered to their ethnicity and religion. What crap! Yet we are “torturing” them…? Stress positions….holding both arms out for hours, for example….is hardly torture. We experience such treatment in basic training. Uncomfortable? Absolutely. Torture? Not! And when a detainee is combative, our MPs are punished for taking actions to protect themselves (like beating down the combative detainee). If anyone is going through torture, it’s our forces for not being allowed to put these detainee turds in their place.

As for Mr Clinton and Sudan, the quote I provide: “I did not bring him here because I had no basis on which to hold him”, is an actual, recorded, quote by Mr Clinton in response to the question about Bin Laden being offered by Sudan (I tried to provide you the link to the audio but my skills in that area are pretty bad…sorry). The offer was made, and he declined it.

ok…I’m going to try this again. Hopefully, this one won’t disappear.Which ones have disappeared, and how? I’ve been having major headaches with TypeKey. Sometimes when I try to submit a post, I get the moderation message, but things go wrong from there. The message appears in my comment queue as if it has been approved, and no matter what I try–saving, rebuilding, etc.–nothing makes it appear in the actual post. Aggravating as hell. I’ve been fighting this in my own posts for some time, and recently it seems to have spilled out from TypeKey-registered comments and into regular comments. Please give me any details you can if a comment submission goes wrong. Thanks.

Just as you find National Review difficult to take seriously, I find Slate magazine (and New Republic and Mother Jones, which some of the Slate writers have worked for) difficult to take seriously.For crying out loud, Morgan, the thing has “black comedy” written all over it. As for Slate, the description of that commercial and the others is so detailed that one would have to assume major intentional deception, a complete hoax for the article–which Slate would have detected long ago and yanked the article. Do a search for it on the web, it’s classified everywhere as a “funny video clip.” Add the word “torture” to the search, no serious results are forthcoming. This page has a Turkish individual who translates what the ‘reporter’ is saying. Further searches reveal pages such as this and this, supporting the prior points.

It’s what I was saying, Morgan: not only did you accept something clearly intended as a comic bit as real, you didn’t even try to verify it. You didn’t even do a Google search when I pointed this out to you. You took it at face value when it was presented to you, and when challenged, you failed even the barest attempts to discover the true nature of the thing. Now, I’ve been taken in in the past, but at least it’s when most everyone is taken in; I research to be as sure as I can that what I’m reporting is true, at least as far as finding any possible contradictory evidence. If someone I trust tells me something, I still check it out–even those you trust can still be wrong. I stand by my statement that if you took that idea to heart, you’d probably change your mind about a lot of things over time.

But, we were discussing Abu Ghraib/ Gitmo “torture chambers”.We didn’t torture as bad as the Husseins, to be certain. But rape of women, sodomization of young boys, beatings, severe humiliation and abuse, electrocution, and killings. Much of it is documented and sourced here, and it goes far, far beyond “stress positions” or only beating them when they are “combative.” And that’s just at Abu Ghraib. By Americans, under American supervision, under the Bush administration with stated approval of denying Geneva conventions and favoring torture. Is it sufficient to you that the Husseins’ tortures were somewhat worse than our own? Does that make what happened under American control okay?

As for Mr Clinton and Sudan, the quote I provide: “I did not bring him here because I had no basis on which to hold him”, is an actual, recorded, quote by Mr Clinton in response to the question about Bin Laden being offered by Sudan (I tried to provide you the link to the audio but my skills in that area are pretty bad…sorry). The offer was made, and he declined it.It is vividly clear that you did not read the blog post I referenced. Even if you disagreed with it, your response would be different. So read the entry. It’s not long. And it’s referenced and documented.

You don’t have to be a technical whiz to copy and paste a URL, by the way, so don’t be afraid to try.

“…Please give me any details you can if a comment submission goes wrong. Thanks….”

I usually have problems when I’m trying to post something, and click on one of the hyperlinks you provide. If I do that in the process of typing a response, whatever I’ve typed disappears. Quite annoying. As for my attempts at providing a link, I try the click-and-drag approach but that doesn’t seem to work. I’ll keep trying.

I don’t advocate torture, and those idiots of the 372d MP Co ought to be PT’d until their arms and legs fall off. One does not rape, sodomize, and/ or kill prisoners. From a practical standpoint, history shows that the prisoners will say anything (including lies) in order to get you to stop. While I could attribute part of the problem to the “soldiers” being Guardsmen and reservists (the Taguba report suppports this belief), I know of incidents where regular Army soldiers have also acted stupidly towards detainees. But those are rare occurances and does not justify painting ALL US troops and US detention facilities as abusive. In fact, some of the so-called “abuse” I don’t have a problem with…..standing on a box, doused in cold water, stripped naked. These are things that US forces are expected to go through as prisoners (if we’re lucky enough to be caught by someone not willing to electrocute us, pull our skin off like a piece of clothing, stick banboo shoots under our fingernails, knock us off of chairs set on top of a table for days on end) and endure as part of their training in SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) School. Some of the “abuses” are part of corrective training in Army basic training. Bottom line: US forces are far more lenient in their treatment of detainees than other forces in Iraq, Afghanistan, Djibouti, Gitmo, etc, etc…

As for the video, thanks for the links and translations. I’ll do a better job of vetting my sources, though I continue to stand by what I’ve heard from friends who’ve had access to the videos of Uday and other such people (I’m sure you’ve heard of them too).

Ok…I think I’ve taken up enough of your time.