An Example
Re: my point last week that in some ways, anti-Muslim sentiments are worse now than they were after 9/11, in particular the open expression by the public as opposed to only private, back-alley-at-night outbursts. Take this excerpt from an article on the Tennessee mosque which has found sudden, forceful rejection from their community:
The mosque — which is still two years away from being completed — has sparked protests in the city of Murfreesboro. There have also been other acts of vandalism: A sign marking the site of the future building was spray-painted with “Not welcome,” and then later broken in half.
Sbenaty expressed shock over the atmosphere in a town he’s lived in for 30 years. For most of that time, he said, the community has been extremely supportive and welcoming. Even after Sept. 11, 2001, he said, neighbors came up to him and said, “Please do not feel scared. We know your religion has nothing to do with this.”
“It’s a wide shift, and a shock,” he told TPM. “It’s just mind-boggling.”
Sbenaty, who is also a member of the Middle East Center at Middle Tennessee State, pinpointed the shift to the 2008 elections and allegations that President Obama is a Muslim.
Interesting that the major shift was not the NYC mosque but the whole movement that preceded it; not too much difference, as the Obama Muslim thing and the NYC mosque Muslim thing are artifacts of the same political campaign and mindset. Of course, despite the shift happening with 2008, the anti-Muslim sentiments have exploded with the NYC mosque outrage, thus we got the arson and vandalism spree at the mosque site and against the company doing construction for it in Tennessee. And the NYC cab driver stabbing, and the turban-wearing man being punched out, and so on.
But hey, right wing, if it helps get votes this November, by all means, keep spewing rabid hate. Maybe you’ll get lucky and lynchings will start up again. Can’t make an omelette and all that, right?
Cab driver stabbing is weird and not obviously wingnut-related or even prompted by the community center+mosque “OMG they’re building a Victory Flag” issue.
It is profitable to demonize Muslims these days. Kills several birds for the Likkudniks among us, also panders to the Christian Fundamentalists who desperately want to see the mideast go up in flames in their lifetime so they can go directly to heaven and leave us poor schmucks in “The Tribulation”.
The Republicans targeted gays in 2004 to GOTV and that worked reasonably well I guess. Rich Republicans who are gay don’t really have to worry about gay marraige rights, they can buy their own via lawyers, so given the choice they’d prefer to keep the Bush 28% top marginal tax rate than get to file a meaningless piece of paper at City Hall.
~40% of this country is demonstrably and rather utterly detached from reality, as ably demonstrated by a certain whack contributor to your comments.
60% of Republicans are Creationists, compared to 30% of Democrats.
http://people-press.org/reports/images/254-9.gif shows the degree of idiocy by religion. 70% of evangelicals are utter anti-rationalist morons and they can bring 25M+ to the polls — they were also Bush’s strongest deme in 2004 with a 78% vote breakout.
I need to get my ass to out of this retarded place. We’re gonna go SOYLENT GREEN here this decade. Well, I felt the same in June 1992 and I was wrong then, but I think we’re much more screwed now than then.
Actually, I find it sad that 40% of the country (a not insignificant number of people) get tarred by the left as “utterly detached from reality”, “whack” and “retarded”. Frankly, I’d consider some of those adjectives not inapplicable to people who advocate Keynesian stimulus, higher taxes and more bureaucracy as a cure for our problems. I doubt that’s the 40% that you had in mind, though.
Aside from opposing the Left’s favorite mosque, I have seen virtually nothing from any prominent Republican which is inflammatory or discriminatory towards Muslims. I guess the Republicans are using their invisible mind control rays to accomplish their infamous hatred spreading. They’ve already affected Harry Reid, who has also come out publicly against the Ground Zero mosque.
Seriously, “Something bad is happening so it’s the fault of the Republicans”. There’s not even an attempt to link a cause and effect. Maybe it’s the crappy economy making people touchy. In which case, it’s mostly Obama’s fault.
^ cf
How darn cute, Geoff K. You faint about some ignorant segments of the right getting tarred by the left – when you are more than happy to do some tarring of your own… then you let loose a real zinger about “the Left’s favorite mosque” (suggests favoritism – which is a lie [we support 1st Amendment rights regarding religion – simple as that], and that it’s a mosque, which it is not) and then claim that somehow the right gets a bye when when it comes to inflammation and discrimination so long as it has to do with the “mosque”. Then you end by calling it the “Ground Zero mosque” – without any ironic quotes around it… which gives some insight to your feelings on the issue (bigoted – and informed by FoxNews et al.).
Do you seriously think that belief in Creationism is *not* utterly detached from reality, whack, or retarded??
I have to give you a pass on this one. Creationism is pretty much indefensible as a scientific theory. The only reason for believing would be religious literalism. Which is why some Muslims also espouse creationist beliefs. To the extent that people feel their religion prevents them from honestly evaluating scientific evidence, I feel sorry for them.
Nonetheless, this doesn’t necessarily make them retarded idiots. People who are otherwise intelligent can hold religious beliefs on faith, not on a cold-hearted rational analysis. In fact, that’s pretty much the only way to do it.
As for the Mosque, who am I to disagree with Harry Reid? When he’s right, he’s right.
Hur, DERP DERP DERP, HUR DERP!
this doesn’t necessarily make them retarded idiots.
Actually I use that term clinically.
IQ Range Classification
70-80 Borderline deficiency
50-69 Moron
20-49 Imbecile
0-20 Idiot
As Alan Kay said, “Point of view is worth 80 IQ points”. Take an average person, and rot their mind with bullshit and/or ideology, and the end result is little different from a moron, imbecile, or idiot.
who am I to disagree with Harry Reid? When he’s right, he’s right.
Rhetorically cute, but intellectually dishonest. Bloomberg and now Sen Hatch have stated their opinions of the right of at least these Muslims to build their cultural center there.
As for Keynesian approaches and the economy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_all_Keynesians_now
What you are very aggressive in refusing to understand is that the Bush Economy became dangerously dependent on household debt addition — this manifested in the household debt rising from $8T at the end of 2001 to peak at $14.4T in mid-2007.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/CMDEBT
The debt take-on came with and was largely fueled by the housing bubble, which employed millions of people (construction, real estate agents, loan brokers, appraisers etc etc) and furthermore allowed middle class America to borrow HUNDREDS of billions of dollars a year, secured by their housing asset(s).
http://imgur.com/zI00L
All that was a stealth stimulus that is gone now. Which makes this statement from you:
Maybe it’s the crappy economy making people touchy. In which case, it’s mostly Obama’s fault.
completely ignorant of reality, or just lying about it like usual (it’s tough to figure you out).
The 2005-2007 Bush Economy featured households taking on around $1.1T of new debt each year, this reversed in 2008 and 2009 (no new debt) and is still going down as of 1Q10.
As you should know from living in Japan since 1995, bad things happen to an economy when people get off from such a firehose of credit drawdown.
While I am not a big fan of spending for spending’s sake (I agree it is not doing us any favors over the long term) much of the Keynesian approaches have been very conservative attempts to keep the 2008 banking crisis from becoming the trigger of a worldwide meltdown a la 1929-33.
The jury is still out on this, but this is still Obama’s first budget year so blaming him for the entire economy exploding 2008-2009 is raw partisanship and/or idiocy.
“In fact, that’s pretty much the only way to do it.” Indeed. Thus why I don’t follow any religious faith. And yes, the Muslims and the Christians commonly do share a Creationist view… It is clearly possible for intelligent people to hold stupid beliefs (especially if inherited from their parents/church and not at all examined)… but, as you said (more or less), it is a sorry thing. Unfortunately their ignorance also affects the rest of us when it comes to policy decisions… such as science education standards, for example. …and belief that the world, having been provided by God as our personal playground, is indestructible by us.
I’m not a fan of either mosques or churches or temples… but suppression of them is a bad idea… especially when run by organizations that are clearly moderate and modern (as modern as religion gets).
Troy, I love the Alan Kay quote. …and the rest of your post. Nice.
“Bloomberg and now Sen Hatch have stated their opinions of the right of at least these Muslims to build their cultural center there.”
SOON TO BE EX-MAYOR Bloomberg and now SOON TO BE EX-Sen Hatch have stated their opinions of the right of at least these Muslims to build their cultural center there.
There–fixed that for ya. Both of these guys were walking dead already politically, but when you take a stance that 70% of voters oppose, you don’t help your re-election chances. Which is the real reason why Harry Reid is opposed now. Unfortunately for him, Nevada voters haven’t forgotten Obamacare either.
“As you should know from living in Japan since 1995, bad things happen to an economy when people get off from such a firehose of credit drawdown.”
Well yes, but I also know that the Japanese spent a fortune on endless “stimulus” packages from 1994 through to the present day. 16 years of these have given Japan a debt which is 200% of GDP, but don’t seem to have actually done much, if anything for the economy.
So Keynesian stimulus works great, except when it doesn’t.
but when you take a stance that 70% of voters oppose, you don’t help your re-election chances. Which is the real reason why Harry Reid is opposed now.
Of course. This is obvious. The problem is that this 70% number you keep trotting out was produced by propagandistic smearing of the community center owners as radical muslims desiring to plant a victory mosque next to the WTC.
That Republicans like getting votes via lying is nothing new, but since you are an outright liar I’m not surprised you’re fully with the program. What a detestable worm you are.
Unfortunately for him, Nevada voters haven’t forgotten Obamacare either.
They hardly knew it. Ooh, Obama, you so bad for forcing insurance companies to cover us and our children with preexisting conditions.
So Keynesian stimulus works great, except when it doesn’t.
Of course, Japan’s attempts were utter failures. But like I said, we’re still in Obama’s first inning as far as remedies go. The ARRA itself was just a little squib of a program compared to the loss of the Bubble Economy.
$50B in unemployment insurance extensions, $20B in cash giveaways to people on SSI, ~$50B on “infrastructure” stuff, ~$30B on healthcare transfer payments, COBRA subsidies for long-termunemployed, $50B for education block grants, ~$30B for energy R&D, all total around $500B, about half of which has been spent now.
Ooh, scary keynesianism. A drop in the bucket compared to the trillions in debt overextension taken on during the Bush Boom.
What has been done so far isn’t going to solve anything though, I’ll grant you that.
There really is no solution to the liquidity trap. (Wage) Inflation isn’t in the cards thanks to NAFTA, China’s cheap labor, and the high unemployment we have.
The core problem is that 10% of the population owns 90% of the resources. The last time this happened things got so bad that we elected a president willing and able to toss the Constitution to ram through his agenda. We’re not there yet but we will be. Might be necessary to take a trip back to the Plain-Gingrich aisle of idiocy, but after that fails there won’t be anything left.
“…religious literalism… …[Nonetheless], this doesn’t necessarily make them retarded idiots. People who are otherwise intelligent can hold religious beliefs…”
The Jesuits and other scholarly orders who taught me and all catholics, and anyone who would listen for that matter, that “religious literalism” is by definition a form of idol worship – pure and simple.
And as my good friend likes to say, “religion and God is what we fall back on when we get tired of thinking.”
I would say that people who are otherwise intelligent who let their religious beliefs do their thinking for them, to the point of literalism, are simply “intelligent” people too tired to think.
But this is neither here nor there, a discussion on aspects of religion and faith are not really all that important, unless they are discussed in the context of politics, in which case religion, and suspension of intellegence because of religion is being used as a Trojan Horse to manipulate the polity… otherwise who cares if you believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and the increase in Co2 in the air isn’t something to worry about, etc…
This is why, short of GK showing me his hundred million dollar plus bank account, I can only think of him as a paid shill for BigMoneyConservatives. No one else, who claims to be literate in politics could express GK ‘s positions on these topics unless it served their interest.
^ Tim, I think disgust with the past failures of liberalism can also lead one to be a full-throated conservative. Welfare began paying families to make babies out of wedlock, which, while the data shows it wasn’t the big disaster its critics make it out to be, the program can easily be demagogued into a causal contributor to the current parlous state of the Black “urban” community.
Plus the PNAC/neocon agenda — the desire that Israel continue to receive full American backing . Without this continued backing, the Jews in Israel would soon find themselves having to swim for Cyprus.
And people who consider abortion a mortal sin against the nation also pitch their lot in with modern conservatism. There was a video made at the Beck rally this weekend interviewing a Tea Party type, and when asked what “honor” the rally was attempt to “restore”, he went on about Obama’s baby-killing law that made Illinois hospitals into secret baby-killing factories. It was really bizarre, but to be honest the anti-abortion position is the one conservative position I fully respect. (I think the woman’s right to privacy and self-determination trumps the fetus’ right to life, but no amount of logical argumentation will every close this philosophical divide).
Oh, swell–mob rule. Do you believe that something is right because 70% of voters oppose it? Or that 70% of voters oppose it because the criticisms are right? Or are you just impressed by big numbers that agree with you? Because it certainly did not sound like you were using these facts to argue against yourself.
The polls showing large numbers of Americas opposed to the mosque is an example of what’s wrong with the system: I believe it is often referred to–a favorite expression among many right-wingers in fact–as the “tyranny of the majority.” A key reason why the Establishment clause was written in the first place. But to many on the right, the “tyranny of the majority” is just a catchy phrase that sounds good when you want to smear somebody. What is means, though, is that even if 99% of Americans want to prevent mosques from being built and Islam worshipped in America, that would only mean that 99% of Americans are wrong and are in violation of our core principles. [Not to mention that the question was fairly loaded; good piece on that here.]
As for Bloomberg and Hatch, anyone who thinks for a moment should realize that the “lame duck” or “walking dead” in politics are more likely to speak truth, especially if they do so breaking against the party line. If not the truth, then certainly a higher probability of a principled stand, right or wrong. As the song lyric goes, and to touch on another recent thread, “Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.”
So, you seem giddy in support of the tyranny of the majority, and mock the most likely sources of principled speech. That you should flaunt both to support your argument demonstrates a true poverty of values.
That you should flaunt both to support your argument demonstrates a true poverty of values.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
Query : Is there anyone of significance challenging the right to build the mosque? I have seen a huge number of people dispute the propriety, but that is not the same thing.
They have a right to build there community center and mosque. Others have a right to say they are jerks for doing so there. Both of these are equally protected by the first amendment.
How is attacking someone for exercising their freedom of speech any different from attacking someone for exercising their freedom of religion?
Where do you see the distinction here?